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Berhthramm

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discussion about cloak especially in military context.
« am: Dezember 31, 2012, 11:04:41 Vormittag »
Hello,

Here in France we’ve got a discussion about wearing a cloak (a cape) in military context and on who wear a cloak...

So as I do when there’s a polemic discussion: I go back to evidence.

Here’s the beginning of my search and conclusion.

Bayeux tapestry (main central part (not the upper and under border) :

-   civilian context : there’s a lot of but only for important person and not at work

-   hunting context : there’s some but on important person (and perhaps only as a symbol of importance (Harold is wearing the cloack but he is with all the symbolic signs of a mighty hunter (falcon and lot of dogs).

-   naval context : there’s some (but it seems to be Harold again as the driver of the boat wich reach Norman’s shore).

-   travelling with weapons but in civilian gear : a yes


Saxon calendar :

No military context here

-   hunting context : it’s yes
-   working context : it’s yes again  you can see cloack on Shepherd  (but not sure it’s a “small Shepherd” : he’s not the one who touch the sheep) and there’s some on the ploughman and on the sower.

Aelfric’s Bible :

-   civilian : it’s a yes but only important people
-   military : no cloak

I’m still working on to produce conclusion but it will certainly be :

Military gear : it’s a no

Civilian gear : it’s a yes if the cloak do not compromise the work you got to do.

Rich wear elaborated cloak and poor wear a simple rectangular cloak.

What is you opinion ? Have you got some other evidences ?
Wir sind keine kleine Mädchen, wir sind große Krieger mit kleine Arme und kleine FuBe und kleine Flügel aber mit groBe....

Hum... they all go to pee on the little red car...

Berhthramm

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Antw:discussion about cloak especially in military context.
« Antwort #1 am: Dezember 31, 2012, 11:06:29 Vormittag »
and if you want to download some of the document I've got :

http://berbove.free.fr/reconstitution/icono%20m%e9dievale.zip

:)

Wir sind keine kleine Mädchen, wir sind große Krieger mit kleine Arme und kleine FuBe und kleine Flügel aber mit groBe....

Hum... they all go to pee on the little red car...

Heinrich

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Antw:discussion about cloak especially in military context.
« Antwort #2 am: Dezember 31, 2012, 15:23:29 Nachmittag »
Hi Berhthramm,

in my opinion is a cloak in combat situation and in full combat gear hindering.

If there would have been a non-combat situation in which one "had to" wear combat gear - maybe a kind of representational situation or initiation ceremony - it could have been possible that important people would have worn a cloak.

But if I got you right, you didn't find a proof for such a sitution.

A nice representative cloak is the dot on the i on a civil gear to underline the importance of a person.
Beste Grüße,

Herr Heinrich

Seigneur de Saint-Léger-aux-Bois
Veteran des Wimpel VI "L'Infanterie Hessois" und Lieu-Tenant des III. Pennon "Hassia"

Vive la Normandie! Thorsaie! Tout ou rien! Pro Honore Militia Hassia!

arduum res gestas scribere

Berhthramm

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Antw:discussion about cloak especially in military context.
« Antwort #3 am: Dezember 31, 2012, 16:12:59 Nachmittag »
Hi Berhthramm,

in my opinion is a cloak in combat situation and in full combat gear hindering.

always remember the film "the undestructibles"  ;)

(--> no cloak for the tru super heroes)...

and the end of Antoine de Bourgogne at Azincourt

If there would have been a non-combat situation in which one "had to" wear combat gear - maybe a kind of representational situation or initiation ceremony - it could have been possible that important people would have worn a cloak.

But if I got you right, you didn't find a proof for such a sitution.


yes and in this type of situation you find more people wearing weapons as a sign of power but in civilian gear (as Guy de ponthieu on the Tapestry)(but perhaps it's not a civilian gear but a gambeson or other type of armor : what he wears is a full controvert (and this part of the Tapestry is not fully reliable because of its restauration)...

But why not.. ;) the only exemple I've found are military order but it's later and it's not in martial (at battle context)

A nice representative cloak is the dot on the i on a civil gear to underline the importance of a person.

It was a big yes for me before I go back to the saxon calendar : two (short) cloak on a full work context (laboring)...

:)
Wir sind keine kleine Mädchen, wir sind große Krieger mit kleine Arme und kleine FuBe und kleine Flügel aber mit groBe....

Hum... they all go to pee on the little red car...