Autor Thema: Swordblade/Gambeson  (Gelesen 19915 mal)

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Duco de Klonia

  • Gast
Swordblade/Gambeson
« am: Juli 03, 2006, 17:49:34 Nachmittag »
Mmmmm...
A question:

I try to order a Norman swordblade at Manning Imperial, but they told me the are probably not able to manage to get it heat-threated in time..

Do you have any advice where to buy a decent Norman sword or blade?
Paul Chen makes decent blades I heard (CAS Iberia) but someone nearby ?

Or do you have a decent Norman sword for sale?

2nd question:
I will get a (butted) mail long hauberk, how does my Aketon have to look?
I like to make one undyed linen, diamond stitched, and closed on the front. Is this correct for Hastings?
Please more tips....

« Letzte Änderung: Juli 04, 2006, 07:59:37 Vormittag von Heiner »

Gerard

  • Gast
Swordblade/Hauberk
« Antwort #1 am: Juli 04, 2006, 01:34:11 Vormittag »
HI Veteran!

Nicely done swords are always hard to get, but maybe I can give you a few clues.

Paul Binns from England is always a good choice, though there has been a few criticism on some of his later work.

http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk

He sometimes seems to respond late to email contact, so phoning him could be a good idea. His swords as a rule are light-weight and can take a lot of punishment (i.e. they punish the other blades  ;))

My favourite weaponsmith would be Jiri Krondak at http://www.fabri-armorum.cz

His swords are not the perfect choice (because they are not made using historically correct techniques), but they look the part and are really a low cost solution. You probably won't beat his price anywhere. BTW: his blades will probably kill any Paul Chen blade! NOTE: Jiri's Englisch is very bad, he might misunderstand the description of your sword, so just send him some pictures of what your sword should look like or a detailed drawing, to make sure you really get what you want.

Järv from this forum seems to sell swords that are suitable for the 11th century:  http://www.hastings1066.de/foren/index.php?topic=424.0

A butted mail hauberk will be fine, as long as it is not made of aluminium or is zinc-coated. it should be knee-length and with elbow-length sleeves. a mail hauberk should allways be worn with a mail coif that may be integrated to the hauberk or be separate. a square ventail will make the hauberk a typical "Norman 1066"  ;))

Gambeson: there is no evidence for any stitching method. Undyed linen is fine, and diamond-stitch will do as any other. make it elbow-length/knee-length  like the hauberk. my advice would be to a closed Gambeson (tunic-type) without any opening whatsoever.If you absolutely dislike that  make theo opening  on the back,with strap-ends... i personally would avoid any buckles or metal in general.

Hope this helps,

Gerard
(aka Achim)

edit: Bitte an einen Moderator, dieses Posting in den "Welcome"-Thread zu verschieben, weil ich in meiner Dusseligkeit das falsche Knöpfchen gedrückt habe ;o)

edit: ;D, ist erledigt. Gruß, Heiner

edit(2): Das unverzügliche Eingreifen des Moderators wurde mit Wohlwollen zur Kenntnis genommen 8)

Danke,
Achim
« Letzte Änderung: Juli 04, 2006, 11:59:54 Vormittag von Gerard »

Duco de Klonia

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #2 am: Juli 04, 2006, 11:50:13 Vormittag »
Yes, thanks, that helped a lot.

About dyes for the tunic:
I tend to make a undyed undertunic (linen-like rough cotton), and an overtunic made of:
1.
Dark brown woolen cloth
or-

2.
Mustard coloured (like the background of this page) linen...

What is the best???
In case of the overtunic made of linen, does it need "lining" on the inside???

Last question:
Where to get decent tablet braid or woven decoration for my tunics?


- about my Norman sword:
Manning Imperial could manage to send me 1 blade (only the blade) for a very decent price.
So I've only to make the pommel, grip and crossguard.

Gerard

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #3 am: Juli 04, 2006, 12:42:59 Nachmittag »
Undertunics can be either bleached or unbleached... both was possible. I tend to think that linen does not necessarily has to be thick or rough-woven. If you have a look at the material the Bayeux Tapestry is made of, you'll soon find that such a fine linen is very hard to find nowadays. I was lucky to find some very fine herringbone pattern white linen, which is still to be sewn...  ::)

Overtunic: I'd always take wool for an overtunic. Naturally dyed linen will loose colour soon, so it just won't look right.

Concerning the colour: Just ask Jorge in this forum, if you need naturally hand-dyed fabrics, he's the person to turn to.

Tablet braid/decoration: no idea. The back-end of my brain spits out: http://www.schneyderey.de/

Your blade: have fun!

Best wishes,
Achim

Hezilo

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #4 am: Juli 04, 2006, 15:57:41 Nachmittag »
Hi,

a good idea for the sword is: http://axonderschmied.de/

Axon is one of "us", Contingent-Member.

He can do the sword for you or just the blade, or any modifications (pommel, grip, crossguard etc.)

Very good quality, at least like Poul Binns.

Gambeson: make it the same size as your chainmail. Use historic fabric. Rest is on your own (stiching, closing)

cheers
Henry

Duco de Klonia

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #5 am: Juli 04, 2006, 21:58:34 Nachmittag »
1 more question-

I have the impression no one uses shield-bosses....on their kites. Is this correct?

Does someone have a pattern for a off duty cap like yours- (Henry)?

Did Normans use waterbottles - I saw a kind of square leather waterflask , made waterproof with beeswax on one of the sites you link to....
I like fieldflasks, cause reenactment is a lot of waiting and getting hungry and thirsty while standing around.

Sword problem sorted out, Manning send me a blade- I'll manage making crossguard, grip  & pommel.

My helmet will be like the 4-plate rivetted- like the one in your PDF 1 plate in the front- one in the back and two fplates filling the sides

Side

Front

(Source: Hermann Historica site - excavation found in France)

Thanks so far.

Gerard

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #6 am: Juli 04, 2006, 23:31:11 Nachmittag »
Hi, it's me again... ;)

shield bosses were only of decorative use in the 11th century. The Bayeux tapestry suggests leather straps for holding the shields which is clearly shown by the illustrations of rivets on the front side and some illustrations showing the leather straps on the rear side of the shields. There is no evidence for a grip behind the shield bosses. some illustrations even show shields without a shield boss. So it's up to you. Attach a shield boss to your shield if you like to have one, but don't forget you have to climb up Senlac Hill... any extra weight has to be carried...

Leather fieldflasks are highly disputed... there is no real evidence for them in the 11th century - but In my opinion neither the Contingent nor the Vikings would kill you for having one. ::)

Still there are some alternatives... a few earthen fieldflasks have been found and it is reported that Calebasses have been used  as bottles.

I think Henry will help you with the phrygian cap. Though, there's a rough pattern for it in the Kit guide: http://www.hastings1066.de/front_content.php?idcat=90&idart=105

The helmet is first choice, I envy you!

Best wishes,
Achim




Hezilo

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #7 am: Juli 05, 2006, 08:10:38 Vormittag »

I have a shield boss on my kite. ;)

Do you have some more informations about the helmet on your photos? Is it the one from this years auction?

cheers
Henry


Duco de Klonia

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #8 am: Juli 05, 2006, 10:52:59 Vormittag »
The text at Hermann Historica says:


The text on Hermann Historica:
"A Norman conical helmet,

11th/12th centuries. Slightly oval, conical iron skull of four overlapping riveted segments with turned under lower edge. Uncleaned excavation discovery in very good shape with damage to the rim. The nasal, presumed to be present originally, is broken off. Height 16.5 cm. Weigh 875 grams.
Rare helmet, which was worn over a mail coif. Found in France.
Cf. Howard M. Curtis, "2500 Years of European Helmets", Dallas 1977. p. 23.
Condition: III- Limit: 2500 EURO"

I am experienced in helmet making, so if I have enough time I will make myself one-
Question:
1.
Is the nasal part of the front-plate?  (do not think so)
Or is it a separate one?

2.
Do tunics- even the ones with gussets- have plits in the front- or side?

3.
When I make an Aketon, what shape does the neck have- square or regular (round) - so what is morde Norman?
Thanks...

(Am I realy the only better- English-than-German writer on the whole forum - I should have paid more attention to the German lessons at school. Anyway, I read the German forum as well.)



Rork McBriday

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #9 am: Juli 05, 2006, 16:06:11 Nachmittag »
Hello Duco,

well the most aketons I know have a round neck.

The splits in front and back are following the splits in the chainmail.

Rork

See you soon... ;D

Hezilo

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #10 am: Juli 06, 2006, 08:14:07 Vormittag »
Is the nasal part of the front-plate?  (do not think so)
Or is it a separate one?

No clear answer possible. The only published helmet like this one is the one in our kitguide. It has a nasal but it´s not clear if it is in one piece or seperate. And I was not able to find more Infos about the helmet.
My very own opinion ist to make it out of one piece. But it´s just a feeling.

Henry

Gerard

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #11 am: Juli 06, 2006, 10:43:30 Vormittag »
The nasal on the published helmet is a complete restoration, as far as I am informed. Nobody knows, how the nasal might or might not have been attached to the helmet in its original form. Not to forget, that the helmets might have been changed throughout the years they were in use. For example a broken integrated nasal might have been cut off completely or been replaced by e riveted one...

 best wishes,
Achim

Bernwart

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #12 am: Juli 06, 2006, 11:56:49 Vormittag »
My very own opinion ist to make it out of one piece. But it´s just a feeling.

I think so too. For a riveted nasal there are not enough holes visible (at least to make it strong enough)

Duco de Klonia

  • Gast
Re: Swordblade/Gambeson
« Antwort #13 am: Juli 06, 2006, 20:29:24 Nachmittag »
Well, about the nasal, - I think the one-piece version may be prettier. But Most nasals will be thicker then the plate material of the bowl.

So it is not easy to make (weld-in a thicker piece perhaps)
I try to make one if I have time enough.
Thanks for all your input.